Oil and antifreeze... DX

D

Devin Davis

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So after all of my repairs and attempts to fix my ZL900 I finally caved and gave it to a new mechanic. He has been working on my ZL for about 6 months now...

He is a very competent mechanic, however he has never worked on a ZL before..

So, great deal of trial and error has gotten a large amount of progress accomplished, including a few electrical gremlins, a cooling issue resolved and also complete removal of my engine and 2 or 3 head removal/swaps..

I have antifreeze getting into my oil somehow... We have replaced the head gasket, water pump, and have even swapped out the entire head from a parts engine that I had purchased in hopes of doing a simple engine swap. None of these have fixed my problem..

Aside from buying YET ANOTHER engine.. does anyone have any ideas??

He is sick of working on it, and needs to move on to other projects.

But my father gave me this bike and I am simply unwilling to part with it/ give up. Any suggestions guys? I have even considered flying one of you "ZL GURUS" out just to fix this damn thing... I am pretty sure I am already upside down on the amount of money put into this bike. I could have possibly bought 2 others by now lol... sigh...

Anyway, any help is greatly appreciated

Thanks!
 
Devin Davis said:
So after all of my repairs and attempts to fix my ZL900 I finally caved and gave it to a new mechanic. He has been working on my ZL for about 6 months now...

He is a very competent mechanic, however he has never worked on a ZL before..

So, great deal of trial and error has gotten a large amount of progress accomplished, including a few electrical gremlins, a cooling issue resolved and also complete removal of my engine and 2 or 3 head removal/swaps..

I have antifreeze getting into my oil somehow... We have replaced the head gasket, water pump, and have even swapped out the entire head from a parts engine that I had purchased in hopes of doing a simple engine swap. None of these have fixed my problem..

Aside from buying YET ANOTHER engine.. does anyone have any ideas??

He is sick of working on it, and needs to move on to other projects.

But my father gave me this bike and I am simply unwilling to part with it/ give up. Any suggestions guys? I have even considered flying one of you "ZL GURUS" out just to fix this damn thing... I am pretty sure I am already upside down on the amount of money put into this bike. I could have possibly bought 2 others by now lol... sigh...

Anyway, any help is greatly appreciated

Thanks!
Click to expand...


NO offence bro, but that first sentence makes my hair stand on end....6 MOS? .....Good that you posted this as it won't take 6 hours to get you going in the right direction..Saw that you joined in 08. Did you ever have this bike running? Or is this the same bike that you have had since 08...*trying to pinpoint actual down time. So all these engine swaps were to stop the oil/anti-freeze....hmmmmmm...I don't have any expertise with this issue....only to say, that I hope that nothing was warped and was checked with one of those "straight rods" or taken to machine shop to be inspected. What are you using to seal mating surfaces? Are you using old bolts for heads? Don't know about the Zl's, but on my small block chevy, you must buy new HEAD bolts (ain't cheap) as they are special bolts and "stretch" when installed. Can't get true torque from a stretched bolt, hence leakage. I'm sure someone will school us both. Hope you get your bike running and I'm sure that it won't take 6 months for you to get it going....lots of knowledge here....Please try the "SEARCH" keyword....Be amazed at what you can find...Just type your headline.....You WILL get your bike running sooner than you think. Good Luck!
 
You can reuse the head bolts.

Assuming this guy is a competent mechanic the only other thing would be the cylinder liner o rings. I have yet to hear of a zl/zx/zg engine leaking from this area but I'm sure it's possible. If it is that I would consider upping the cc's by installing a zl/zx/zg cylinder jug and pistons, you might find a good used set. Good luck and keep us posted!
 
Is it possible the jug itself is cracked and leaking? From the post, doesn't look like you've replaced that. Also, have you tried pressurizing the system with a pump while it's not running to see if you can see or hear anything? Sometimes this will reveal things that aren't noticeable on a running engine. Don't have to buy a pump, most auto parts stores [Advance, Autozone, etc] will let you borrow a kit if you leave a deposit.
 
Hey GD, what sort of pressure test are you talking about - compressed air, water / oil?
How are you introducing the pressure - through the spark plug hole?
I have had water issues myself and think a pressure test may be required.
 
Scoobys_piece said:
NO offence bro, but that first sentence makes my hair stand on end....6 MOS? .....Good that you posted this as it won't take 6 hours to get you going in the right direction..Saw that you joined in 08. Did you ever have this bike running? Or is this the same bike that you have had since 08...*trying to pinpoint actual down time. So all these engine swaps were to stop the oil/anti-freeze....hmmmmmm...I don't have any expertise with this issue....only to say, that I hope that nothing was warped and was checked with one of those "straight rods" or taken to machine shop to be inspected. What are you using to seal mating surfaces? Are you using old bolts for heads? Don't know about the Zl's, but on my small block chevy, you must buy new HEAD bolts (ain't cheap) as they are special bolts and "stretch" when installed. Can't get true torque from a stretched bolt, hence leakage. I'm sure someone will school us both. Hope you get your bike running and I'm sure that it won't take 6 months for you to get it going....lots of knowledge here....Please try the "SEARCH" keyword....Be amazed at what you can find...Just type your headline.....You WILL get your bike running sooner than you think. Good Luck!
Click to expand...

In less than 2 hours, you had the Cult leader and a highly skilled mechanic respond to your post with a wealth of information....C? Told ya bro, this is the place to get your sled running like it should.
 
golddrakul said:
Is it possible the jug itself is cracked and leaking? From the post, doesn't look like you've replaced that. Also, have you tried pressurizing the system with a pump while it's not running to see if you can see or hear anything? Sometimes this will reveal things that aren't noticeable on a running engine. Don't have to buy a pump, most auto parts stores [Advance, Autozone, etc] will let you borrow a kit if you leave a deposit.
Click to expand...

School me please? What's a jug? know I"m going to get rained on by this one:rotf:, but my ocd needs to know what it is......
 
jmassengill said:
jug = cylinder, or in this case, cylinder sleeve
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm....so these things are sleeved....AHHHHHHHHHH...just had that moment....the head is aluminum and the cylinders are sleeved with steel? The reason I asked about this was the fact that he switched heads, but made no mention about the sleeves....Are these set up like later Vega's? The early Vegas were completely aluminum and pistons would seize, so later vegas were sleeved with a steel cylinder to correct this condition. Hope I'm making sense.....
 
Scoobys_piece said:
Hmmmmm....so these things are sleeved....AHHHHHHHHHH...just had that moment....the head is aluminum and the cylinders are sleeved with steel? The reason I asked about this was the fact that he switched heads, but made no mention about the sleeves....Are these set up like later Vega's? The early Vegas were completely aluminum and pistons would seize, so later vegas were sleeved with a steel cylinder to correct this condition. Hope I'm making sense.....
Click to expand...

Usually [but not always!] when someone refers to the head they're talking about the top part where the valves [and in this case cams] are; on our bikes the sleeves [and pistons] are contained in the finned "jugs" between the lower case and the head. Separate pieces, you can replace one without the other. Jugs similar to block of car in that respect...
 
vinny said:
Hey GD, what sort of pressure test are you talking about - compressed air, water / oil?
How are you introducing the pressure - through the spark plug hole?
I have had water issues myself and think a pressure test may be required.
Click to expand...

Vinny, the pressure is induced by removing the radiator cap and pumping air into the system, thus forcing liquid out any leaks. There is also an adapter to pressure check the cap itself. When I was in the auto repair business, found it invaluable. Nothing like putting a water pump on a Ford where they bolt every accessory in the world onto the pump, and finding out the gasket shifted after you start it. The pressure tester will tell you as soon as you have the cooling system back to being a sealed system.

Here's a link to an example [not the only brand, nor anything I've even tried]:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_99984235-P_x_x

If you do decide to buy one of these, find one with LOTS of adapters; at one time the caps/radiator openings were standard, but now everyone has their own idea of the "best" size, so there is no "one size fits all" tester.

Let me know if you have any more questions, be glad to ramble on. :laughing7:
 
Thanks for the info - that helps a lot.
I will have a look round to find something here in the UK.
Many thanks - I appreciate the heads up.
 
golddrakul said:
Vinny, the pressure is induced by removing the radiator cap and pumping air into the system, thus forcing liquid out any leaks. There is also an adapter to pressure check the cap itself. When I was in the auto repair business, found it invaluable. Nothing like putting a water pump on a Ford where they bolt every accessory in the world onto the pump, and finding out the gasket shifted after you start it. The pressure tester will tell you as soon as you have the cooling system back to being a sealed system.

Here's a link to an example [not the only brand, nor anything I've even tried]:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_99984235-P_x_x

If you do decide to buy one of these, find one with LOTS of adapters; at one time the caps/radiator openings were standard, but now everyone has their own idea of the "best" size, so there is no "one size fits all" tester.

Let me know if you have any more questions, be glad to ramble on. :laughing7:
Click to expand...

Gold~ You say ramble, I say invaluable information. Hats off to anyone who goes near a First_On_Race_Day car...They are a nightmare to work on. That's some serious good stuff you wrote there.
 
Scoobys_piece said:
NO offence bro, but that first sentence makes my hair stand on end....6 MOS? .....Good that you posted this as it won't take 6 hours to get you going in the right direction..Saw that you joined in 08. Did you ever have this bike running? Or is this the same bike that you have had since 08...*trying to pinpoint actual down time. So all these engine swaps were to stop the oil/anti-freeze....hmmmmmm...I don't have any expertise with this issue....only to say, that I hope that nothing was warped and was checked with one of those "straight rods" or taken to machine shop to be inspected. What are you using to seal mating surfaces? Are you using old bolts for heads? Don't know about the Zl's, but on my small block chevy, you must buy new HEAD bolts (ain't cheap) as they are special bolts and "stretch" when installed. Can't get true torque from a stretched bolt, hence leakage. I'm sure someone will school us both. Hope you get your bike running and I'm sure that it won't take 6 months for you to get it going....lots of knowledge here....Please try the "SEARCH" keyword....Be amazed at what you can find...Just type your headline.....You WILL get your bike running sooner than you think. Good Luck!
Click to expand...

Just a bit of of perspective.

My bike has been down approximately a year and a half.. I couldnt find a decent (honest) mechanic in my area that will work on 27 year old kawasaki. The oil/water problem didnt show up until I took it to the guy BEFORE this one.. Every "repair" the previous mechanic would attempt would inevitably fail.. and then he would suggest I sell he bike TO HIM... which made me wonder if he was sabotaging my bike.

When I Brought this bike to the new mechanic it was NOT specifically for the oil/water problem. I was sick of dealing with and wasting time with the OTHER (very crappy) mechanic who failed to address ANY of the problems my bike was having ) electrical issues, overheating, running well for 15-20 mins, and then dying abruptly.

I brought the bike to this new guy explaining that I was fine with doing a complete engine overhaul (considering the bike is 27 years old...aaaaaand I kinda ride like a bat out of hell.. O.o..

THIS new mechanic pointed out a LARGE amount of issues that the previous mechanic either overlooked (or possibly caused)
Once he started disassembling the engine he noticed my valves needed adjustment and that my timing chain was wayyy stretched out. So instead of overhauling he recommends I save my money and attempt those repairs first. I got another chain and he adjusted the valves voila it runs great... But still the overheating AND also the oil/water mix.. Then he fixed my overheating/fan switch problems..

He suggested the purchase of a used engine simply because the cost of boring and replacing all parts would be more expensive. He KNOWS how much trouble I have had with shoddy mechanics taking my money. So he has been very generous and helpful about trying to save me expenses whenever possible..

He also suggested that I buy new headbolts. But we discovered that some of the headbolts are discontinued.. Keep in mind that I have TWO engines... Between both of them we sill cannot find a complete set.. that arent stretched.. He has tightened them down to 45 footpounds.. The manual said I believe 27 footpounds for new bolts and 32 for used... but still its leaking.. so he is baffled.

The reason he had my bike for about six months is because he was doing this project in his spare time and for a ridiculously low price. Also take into account that when he recommended I replace something, i would have to order the part and wait on shipping for it to arrive.
 
One last thing, Please bear in mind that, up until now me and my father had always done/performed the mechanical work on this bike myself. I received the title to it in 2003. It was a complete mess. We brought it up to running condition within about 6-7 months. I have ridden it daily since. I have performed maintenance and repairs many many times.. But I have never disassembled an entire engine. So once it became apparent that this problem was larger than myself I began a very fruitless search for someone local to fix it lol.. I got TONS of offers to BUY it.. but no one wanted to fix it lol
 
Devin,
keep hanging on. My Dad had a bad outcome with a motorcycle and he didn't and doesn't share my motorcycle hobby. I wish he did and I wish he had health enough to ride with me...just once. Sad to say, he doesn't and he won't ever have the chance to. If I had my dad's motorcycle, I would do anything and everything to ensure that bike ran and stayed in my family. I admire your pluck and determination.

My son and I share our motorcycle hobby and I have ridden with him when he was home on leave and we had a ball. I hope if he gets my zl600 & zx600 one day (there is no one else they should go to) he does everything he can to keep them going

I hope you find out how your water and oil are mixing. Much good luck!
 
jmassengill said:
Devin,
keep hanging on. My Dad had a bad outcome with a motorcycle and he didn't and doesn't share my motorcycle hobby. I wish he did and I wish he had health enough to ride with me...just once. Sad to say, he doesn't and he won't ever have the chance to. If I had my dad's motorcycle, I would do anything and everything to ensure that bike ran and stayed in my family. I admire your pluck and determination.

My son and I share our motorcycle hobby and I have ridden with him when he was home on leave and we had a ball. I hope if he gets my zl600 & zx600 one day (there is no one else they should go to) he does everything he can to keep them going

I hope you find out how your water and oil are mixing. Much good luck!
Click to expand...

+1...You WILL find out what's wrong with it and it will be probably something really simple. Anyone live near this member? Yea...My dad is long gone, but I do remember him taking me fishing everyday. Dad HATED motorcycles and when I finally got him to say OK, he broke down...I couldn't buy what would have probably been the bike that would have killed me....it was a Yamaha SR500...SINGLE cylinder...that thing had so much torque, I could pull a wheely in 4th gear.

You'll get everything straighten out and you'll enjoy your sled again.
 
I just want to echo the above replies - keep the bike and persevere with it.
Once you get it fixed - there aint nothing like it!
 
zlMark said:
You can reuse the head bolts.

Assuming this guy is a competent mechanic the only other thing would be the cylinder liner o rings. I have yet to hear of a zl/zx/zg engine leaking from this area but I'm sure it's possible. If it is that I would consider upping the cc's by installing a zl/zx/zg cylinder jug and pistons, you might find a good used set. Good luck and keep us posted!
Click to expand...


Actually mark I have had to replace the cyl o rings once. They dont normally go bad but they will let antifreeze get into the oil when they do.

So if the head and gasget is good and the waterpump isnt letting it threw they are the next logical thing to look at.
 
Ok so I have priced out the cost for the Cylinder O rings.. Apparently I need 8 of the larger (79.5mm) rings which cost about $6 a piece and 4 of the smaller (78mm) rings which cost nearly $13

Lol thats exactly $100... Much better than buying a new engine on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-86...183&pid=100033&prg=1011&rk=1&sd=280743752907&

I guess I will order these rings and see if that solves it.. Though I will be very sad if I throw another hundred bucks towards rings if I should actually be boring it out or having it machined etc..

Anyone know the best place to order OEM parts? I use CheapCycleParts.com , RonAyers.com , and midwestactioncycle.com

I am hoping there is a kit or something that will make it a bit more affordable.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
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